Curse

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

With the Recent change to Aura of the Lich I have really started to think that Minion master could be a viable PVP option once again.

Sure we lost some survivability and this is more of a Nerf than a buff when it comes to PvE. But in PVP this skill could be used pretty effectively. Considering that you can often cast it twice before a round even starts. Not to mention ECHO it, or insta recharge it.

So what are your thoughts

for me it would be

RA/TA = AOTL

AB/JQ/FA = OOU

Lets take a look at some builds for a survivable Necro that can get up an effective army in RA or AB.

For survivability its a hard sell for me. I find my self relying on Mystic Regen Dark bond and Infuse conditions but with the nerf to mystic regen its a hard sell.

But I'm sure there are better options. what have you guys found to be effective?

jiggles · Jul 01, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Let me give you a quick lesson on guildwars, and how minions are useful in some situations (PvE) and useless in others[PvP].

PvE

Enemys like to attack minions and leave bodies, letting more minions be creaded. With a minion bomber necro minions can be quite he effective meat shields because everything wants to get them out the way. And in the process blow themselves up (Yey retarded AI)

PvP

People are not retarded. If you see a large mob of minions, the first thing you do not do is run and start blowing them up. Instead you charge in and attack the minion creator.

Also if there is a non retarded ranger on the other team, he'll just interupt AoL, leaveing you bodiless, defenseless, and killable.

Lesson over.

How the hell you possibly think otherwise is beyond me. And JQ/FA/AB are not legit forms of pvp. Farming npc's =/= pvp.

Revelations · Jul 01, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

1. It wasn't a recent buff.

2. Outside of lichway (which is somewhat bad) it has incredibly limited use in pvp.

3. AB and CMs are hardly pvp. As for RA.... anything works in RA.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

Let me give you a quick lesson on guildwars, and how minions are useful in some situations (PvE) and useless in others[PvP].

PvE

Enemys like to attack minions and leave bodies, letting more minions be creaded. With a minion bomber necro minions can be quite he effective meat shields because everything wants to get them out the way. And in the process blow themselves up (Yey retarded AI)

PvP

People are not retarded. If you see a large mob of minions, the first thing you do not do is run and start blowing them up. Instead you charge in and attack the minion creator.

Also if there is a non retarded ranger on the other team, he'll just interupt AoL, leaveing you bodiless, defenseless, and killable.

Lesson over.

How the hell you possibly think otherwise is beyond me. And JQ/FA/AB are not legit forms of pvp. Farming npc's =/= pvp.

WOW, I don't remember talking about rather or not MM will be the best option in PVP, of course its not.

In Alliance Battles the fact is, they do have a roll. Is it better filled by a LC necro, or WK, yes. Is it fun to play an MM though, Yes it is.

All I want to discuss here is viable builds for surviving pvp and maintaingin a minion army. If you want to show how good you are at Guild Wars build making than post one. If not than move along. We arent here to discuss rather or not "you think mm is any good in pvp" just what skills would be best in pvp.

GVG, TA these are the places I would expect to be trahsed for mentioning a MM, but RA (takes the interupted every time) theory to heck, since the minions will only be from the 1 free one you get for AOTL and MAYBE an extra from the first body. And in AB they will be raised when people are NOT AROUND TO INTERUPT YOU, when your team is alone capping a shrine.

Come on now man, lighten up okay. Not everything has to be what you would run. It's a GAME and for me 90% of the reason I still play it is because I can make crazy wierd builds and have fun running them. If I wanted to farm for points Id run a VR Mez team.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

1. It wasn't a recent buff.

2. Outside of lichway (which is somewhat bad) it has incredibly limited use in pvp.

3. AB and CMs are hardly pvp. As for RA.... anything works in RA.

1)It was changed in the last major patch, to me that was recent, I mean were talking about within 2 months here.

2) in TA and GVG Sure, but im talking about RA and AB or CM

3) How so? you fight players.. its very much PVP, its not the hardcore pvp you love, but its still PVP. And a great place to mess around and have fun.

Why is everyone so eliteist in this game? its like if its not the cookie cutter GVG/TA/HB build no one wants to discuss it.

Seraphim of Chaos · Jul 01, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Minion Masters are somewhat viable in CM and AB (even then, the template itself has way too many holes), but nowhere else.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Minion Masters are somewhat viable in CM and AB (even then, the template itself has way too many holes), but nowhere else.

Right, this is my point

there has to be a way we can make an MM work in AB. You have a fresh supply of boddies, and since you can get anywhere from 3 to 4 with AOTL from any shrine.. I was thinking something simple like

Verata's Sacrifice + OOU to maintain 3 Bone Fiends could be used to maintain a 3 man attack squad.

just compliment this with a few other skills to aid in personal survivability, and a few good hexes for degen, and this could work.

Look, I realize that AB is not something that you "HARDCORE PVPers" are into, and so you immediatley are turned off when we mention it.

but the fact is that you 'hardcore pvpers" are the reason we play AB and JQ and such.

you guys are so uppite and eliteist, I couldnt find a serious GVG guild now if I wanted to, your all rank 8 or higher only, were not taking you if your not blah blah look at my wolf blah blah.. its rediculous. Hell Team arena doesnt even work now, for the same reason. Us casual players are forced in to AB. And than when we come to a forum to discuss builds for it, you rub your eilteism in our faces even here.

Get over your selves, its getting bad.

Revelations · Jul 01, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I have no issue with running something fun, however I would much rather run something fun AND effective, instead of the former alone.

As far as minion masters go, I see no fun. I also note that their effectiveness is exceedingly limited. What role do they have to fill in AB? A niche at best.

Carting half a dozen minions around an AB map kills any semblance of mobility. You have semi-random undirected damage, so you could possibly take out a shrine at half the pace that SH does. You have no utility, and a good amount of your skillbar is devoted to keeping yourself alive so that you don't become a liability to your own team by dying.

So go ahead and run your Lich necro, doesn't really concern me in the slightest. I'll sit here happy in the knowledge that I can support my team better by filling a more effective, defined role.

As for your rant about pvp, you couldn't be more wrong. I myself am not much more than a casual player. It might be tough at times to break into it, but as soon as you've made a couple of friends (among your so called 'uppite elitists') you'll find that you are judged by attitude and skill, not by any title. If you still find this hard to believe just message me in game and I'll be happy to friendlist you for some matches if you're willing to improve.

Made In Ascalon · Jul 01, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

The only reason MMs are viable in CMs and AB is because the majority of people who play there absolutely suck. I'm not sure where you're coming from with MMs suddenly being viable in these formats because of AotL. They've always been good for farming noobs.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

I have no issue with running something fun, however I would much rather run something fun AND effective, instead of the former alone.

As far as minion masters go, I see no fun. I also note that their effectiveness is exceedingly limited. What role do they have to fill in AB? A niche at best.

Carting half a dozen minions around an AB map kills any semblance of mobility. You have semi-random undirected damage, so you could possibly take out a shrine at half the pace that SH does. You have no utility, and a good amount of your skillbar is devoted to keeping yourself alive so that you don't become a liability to your own team by dying.

So go ahead and run your Lich necro, doesn't really concern me in the slightest. I'll sit here happy in the knowledge that I can support my team better by filling a more effective, defined role.

lol I agree with you on all of your points, I really do.

but that doesn't change the fact that your are posting an ANIT MM response in a thread started to simply discuss how an MM could possibly be built for AB.

Its like this:

1) you dont belive in god.
2) you go to a church group meeting where people have gathered to praise god
3) you walk in the door and say, there is not god

Do you not see the flaw in that logic? If I had titled the thread "PVP MM is this a good idea" than I would be open to your comments. And I would be in a better position to recieve them positively. But I did not.

I am only here to discuss the MM Skills that might be good in AB or RA that is all.

And a SINGLE MM can defend a rez shrine pretty effectively with the right skills by the way.

on a side note: I wish GW would give us a Minion Bar, similar to our party bar that listed the names and health/conditions/hexes of our minions. So that in PVE would could actually run the MM our selves. Without that its simply better used by a hero.

Revelations · Jul 01, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

With the Recent change to Aura of the Lich I have really started to think that Minion master could be a viable PVP option once again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

So what are your thoughts

You asked for our thoughts, we gave them. Don't flame us because we disagree.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

The only reason MMs are viable in CMs and AB is because the majority of people who play there absolutely suck. I'm not sure where you're coming from with MMs suddenly being viable in these formats because of AotL. They've always been good for farming noobs.

Well AOTL was more of a RA thing, I was thiking the ability to raise 2 minions before the match starts could be good.

in RA I was just wondering what people use to stay alive and mobile.

I realize its not the best idea, but I really want to play MM when Im messing around because I find it fun.

FoxBat · Jul 01, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

MMs don't function well as part of "cap" teams. Probably their best use is turning the tide on bridge battle cluster****. When stacked with dark bond and silly defense enchantments they can be an OK roadblock to enemy capping or taking out solo cappers.... they can be real annoying for teams without enchant removal. So I would only look at them on ancestral/kanaai/saltspray, and more for pugging or disorganized play.

Using AotL in JQ is sortof funny but not that effective. You can quickly recap shrines with it, but a suicide nec does the same and yet can also cap without bodies.

In FA I just wonder how much gunther's nuking of masterless minions may have hurt things. The bodies stack high, the player count is large, and most matches come down to a big green gate battle, so there is opportunity here. But really every single kurzick should be rolling a healer and just camping the green gate for the win, and I'm not sure how good it is for the luxons who constantly get sent back and have to run all the way there.

I'd actually rather have MMs in HA/GvG than AB/JQ, you can at least run lame gankoff/fame farm builds with barbs that are effective enough. Mobility is the bane of MMs so, if the fight is constantly moving, they have a hard time keeping up. But 80% of HA/GvG doesn't know how to do that so you can get pretty far there.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

MMs don't function well as part of "cap" teams. Probably their best use is turning the tide on bridge battle cluster****. When stacked with dark bond and silly defense enchantments they can be an OK roadblock to enemy capping or taking out solo cappers.... they can be real annoying for teams without enchant removal. So I would only look at them on ancestral/kanaai/saltspray, and more for pugging or disorganized play.

Using AotL in JQ is sortof funny but not that effective. You can quickly recap shrines with it, but a suicide nec does the same and yet can also cap without bodies.

In FA I just wonder how much gunther's nuking of masterless minions may have hurt things. The bodies stack high, the player count is large, and most matches come down to a big green gate battle, so there is opportunity here. But really every single kurzick should be rolling a healer and just camping the green gate for the win, and I'm not sure how good it is for the luxons who constantly get sent back and have to run all the way there.

I'd actually rather have MMs in HA/GvG than AB/JQ, you can at least run lame gankoff/fame farm builds with barbs that are effective enough. Mobility is the bane of MMs so, if the fight is constantly moving, they have a hard time keeping up. But 80% of HA/GvG doesn't know how to do that so you can get pretty far there.

Thanks. I appreciate the reply

gremlin · Jul 01, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Would it be a good idea if they could modify some areas of pvp either for GW or GW2 to make more builds viable.

As an comparative newbie to much of pvp seems to me that many skills and build remain unused.

Pretty sure that this was not the intention when the game was created.

Gforce · Jul 01, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

In DoDo after the buff we ran a deadly swarm spike with AotL, though it was not that similar to the one which was/is (havent played in a while) in HA.

Here is a video made by a guest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioWkyd4P9EE

We won the game but I wouldnt really say that its a good build.. Was fun for a few games though.

tinygod · Jul 01, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Would it be a good idea if they could modify some areas of pvp either for GW or GW2 to make more builds viable.

As an comparative newbie to much of pvp seems to me that many skills and build remain unused.

Pretty sure that this was not the intention when the game was created.

The problem is not that they are not viable

the problem is this:

When GW first was released the PVP was amazing. It was frantic everyone was runnign something different and no one was horribly over powered. It was casual and FUN. teams were mostly PUG's maybe 2 roomates or a 3 or 4 friends might join together, but that was about it.

There were gimic builds, but nothing crazy

Within a few short months PVP started to degenerate into what you are seeing now. Gimic builds and Team builds, this happend after 2 or 3 months because before than no one had all the skills to play around with.

Soon you started seeing cookie cutters. you ever heard the term WAMO, well that means warrior Monk and back in the day they were rediculous once you unlocked the Protection and healing spells you needed to really make your self rediculous. there wasnt as much enchantment removal so it started to be really annoying.. Like the /dervish builds were afer the night fall release.

Now fast forward 4 years, we have all beaten the game, there is really nothing left to do but FARM and PVP

so, you end up with Cookie cutter farming teams: Dont even try and join if you dont have the exact build they are looking for. or gimicy one man builds that can solo certain areas.

And in PVP you have the same thing only its amplified by PVP rank, Most guilds that actualy pvp wont even look at you if you havent grinded out rank 7 or above in pvp. and the only way to do that is to teadiously farm team arena with a gimic team. Its not fun its not casual and its very demanding on your time. Some people have done it over the first 4 years. but alot of us never bothered with pvp until it was too late. We were doing PVE and now we are stuck in this cycle where no one wants to let us pvp with them (most team arena players are rank 5+ and wont let you join if you are not) so we do RA, and that is just luck of the draw, and could take years.

If you had been playing team arean since day one you could ahve easily reached that rank. back in the day anyone would play with anyone it was easy to get glad, if you found a good team. I reached rank 2 in like 2 weeks, and most of that was 2 teams, we were top of the alter for a very long time on one run, like 5 hours.

So those of us who want some PVP thats not RA are forced to do AB or JQ, and even that has organized teams on it, but atleast its a random grouping of 3 of them and not 3 4 mans that are working together.

They need to impliment a way to do GVG style combat without a guild. and have it not count for guild pvp titles or rank. but oh well GW 2 will be out in a year and than we can all just PVP from day one.

Div · Jul 01, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

If you want to talk about RA, there's a thread for that. If you want to talk about AB/CM, there's a section for that.